Pioneers in Christian Counseling: An Interview with Paul Meier

Paul Meier, M.D., is cofounder and Medical Director of New Life Clinics, one of the largest nationwide providers of Christian mental health care. He is also co-host of New Life Live! a national radio program. Author of more than 50 books, he is a well-known teacher and speaker who has appeared on sHow is hosted by Oprah Winfrey, Tom Snyder, and Norman Vincent Peale. In addition, he currently serves on Focus on the Familys Physicians Resource Council and treats patients at the Paul Meier New Life Day Hospital and Outpatient Clinic in Richardson, Texas. In September 1999, AACC honored Dr. Meier with a Lifetime Achievement Award for his work in the field of Christian counseling. Join me for an intI amate conversation with this pioneer who has powerfully influenced the Christian communitys perception of counseling, psychology, and psychiatry.



*Tell me a little bit about your roots, your childhood, and how you came to know Christ.*



*PM:* I recently found out that my ancestors on both sides of my family were Jewish. I never knew that. I always had a love for the Jews and went to Israel five years in a row to train counselors. I am working on my fifth Bible prophecy novel that has to do with Israel. So I have always had a love for the Jews, and so did my family, even though they were German. In 1998, my 90-year-old mother told me that one of our family secrets was that we were Jewish. In the 1790s my ancestors moved from Germany to Russia. In the 1860s, two missionaries came to their town of about 8,000 people in Russia. The two missionaries were shoe repairmen, so they went door to door, mending shoes, mending soles, and saving souls. They witnessed to people and led Bible studies. There was a revival and about a third of the city became Christians, including my ancestors on my moms side and my dads side. In fact, on my dads side, one of my ancestors became pastor of a new church that sprang up. Those missionaries left and were never heard from again. My mom and dad were born around 1908 and grew up in Jewish Christian homes in Russia. Then the Bolshevik Revolution took place in 1917, and my ancestors were persecuted. They saw some family members shot. My pare nots families escaped Russia and ended up going back to Germany. They changed the spelling of their last names so that they would be more German and less Jewish. My mom and dad were friends when they grew up, but they did not see each other after the age of 9 or 10 when their families left Russia and went to Germany. In fact, they did not see each other again until they were about 27 years old in the United States. They ran into each other and they were both still single, so they got married. So I grew up in a Christian home where we had family devotions at the supper table every night. I trusted Christ at age 6 at a Sunday school class at church. When I was 10, my mom taught me Psalm 1 and the Importance of meditating on Scripture. I began reading the Bible for myself everyday when I was 10. I am 54 now and I still do that every day.



*Did you always want to be a psychiatrist?*



*PM:* My mom told me that when I was about five or six years old, I was outdoors in the snow and the neighborhood bully pushed me down and walked off. My brother, who became a Golden Gloves boxer, would have knocked his block off. But my mom said I got up, brushed myself off, walked over to her, and said, I wonder why he did that. Even at that young age I was analyzing and trying to figure people out. I did not decide on psychiatry until two weeks before I finished medical school. My dad was a carpenter and my mom was a maid, so I planned to be a carpenter like my dad. I was not even planning on going to college. But when I was 16 years old, I had two intense dreams one night. Jesus was in both of those dreams. In one of them, he said, I want you to be a doctor. I woke up and thought, OK, Ill be a doctor. In the other dream, I felt myself being an older adult, working with people in other countries, teaching and having an Impact for Christ. I woke up from that dream and thought, Oh, you want me to be some sort of missionary doctor!



*How did you go about choosing psychiatry as a specialty?*



*PM:* I got a master s degree in cardiovascular physiology from Michigan State University. At that time, I thought I was going to be a researcher and use that as a platform for Christ, to show his creativity or find the cure for cancer. But I could not stand operating on dogs; Id cry whenever I had to put a dog to sleep after I operated on it. So I have always been a big softie. My wife was from Arkansas, so I ended up going to the University of Arkansas for medical school. I knew in medical school that God wanted me to be a doctor and use that as a platform somehow to further the cause of Christ. But I did not know how…I did not know if Id be a missionary surgeon overseas, a rich American radiologist who served on a mission board, or a witnessing family practice doctor. I really did not know what field God wanted me to go into, other than medicine. In medical school, you do a little bit of everything. I really tossed and turned trying to decide what field of medicine to go into. I thought God wanted me to be a surgeon, because most missionary doctors are surgeons. But I did not really enjoy surgery that much. I loved delivering babies and seeing new life, but I did not want to be getting called all hours of the night for the rest of my life. I enjoyed reading psychology books even though there werent a whole lot of Christian psychology books back in the 60s other than Paul Tournier and Clyde Narramore. I read of all Paul Tourniers books, and when I did some psychiatry in medical school, I really enjoyed it. I loved understanding how the mind and the soul and the body all worked together. Two weeks before graduation, my medical school buddy, Frank Minirth, and I were praying about what to go into. We thought it would be neat if we could both go into the same thing and be a team. The Bible says in a multitude of counselors there is safety. We called about a dozen Christian leaders, including Haddon Robinson, to tell them we were considering psychiatry among other things. All of them told us, Whatever you do, don't go into psychiatry, because everyone who goes into psychiatry loses their faith. With 100% advice not to go into psychiatry, we prayed and decided thats exactly what God wanted us to do. Its ironic that Haddon Robinson later hired Frank and me to teach at Dallas Theological Seminary. Many Christians seemed afraid of psychology, and yet much of the psychology that Frank and I studied and the psychiatry that we saw practiced was very biblical. We thought it was too bad that Christians were missing out on the possibilities offered by the field. Psychiatry offered us a unique way to minister to people for Christ. Frank and I decided at the same time to go into psychiatry, about two weeks before we finished medical school. We were allowed to go into a residency in Arkansas, and later on I went to Duke to finish up.



*How did you and Frank Minirth meet?*



*PM:* At the University of Arkansas, they put cadaver mates in alphabetical order. The person next to me alphabetically out of more than 100 students was Frank Minirth. We shared the same cadaver. I think that was divine providence, even though we are not working together now.



*What brought you to Dallas Theological Seminary?*



*PM:* I grew up poor and was teaching at Trinity for $14,000 a year. At that time, Frank Minirth wanted me to join him in Dallas and begin a counseling program. I had some better job offers for over $100,000 a year. I was leaning toward quitting seminary, taking one of those lucratI have jobs, and buying a home on Lake Michigan. Then Paul Little died in a car wreck. Paul Little was a teacher at Trinity during this time, and his office was next to mine. He wrote a wonderful book on How to Give Away Your Faith. I went to Pauls funeral, and Leighton Ford talked about how Paul Little had been a pioneer for Christ. Leighton challenged us: When you look back on your life, do you want to see how much money youve earned, or do you want to see what youve done to be a pioneer for Christ? It was like a knife sticking in me. Sitting in that pew, I decided to go to Dallas Seminary. They already have a great counseling program at Trinity, I reasoned. I am going to go be a pioneer for Christ. Instead of taking a more lucratI have job, I decided to join Frank and teach at Dallas for $12,400 a year. I ended up teaching full time for 12 years.



*How did your career evolve into writing and broadcast?*



*PM:* There were hardly any Christian psychology books available other than those by Gary Collins, Clyde Narramore, and Paul Tournier. So for each course I taught, I wrote a book for that course. For example, I wrote Personality Development for a personality course I taught. The books took off and sold. After people read my books, people wanted me to treat them. I had a small, private, part-time practice to supplement my teaching income and help pay off my medical school loan. People began calling from all over the country, wanting Frank and me to treat them, but we did not have time. We were booked up for three to six months in advance, because we only saw patients about 15 hours a week. We decided wed start hiring some Christian counselors to see the overflow. We hired committed Christians, who were therapists, either psychologists, psychiatrists, or masters level therapists. The clinic in Dallas mushroomed and grew. Then some of those therapists wanted to move back to their hometowns and form branch clinics. Some of the people we trained started their own clinics and we referred to them. If they wanted to do a branch clinic with us, we let them. Then, in 1985, Frank and I were asked to start doing radio broadcasting. By 1989 I had left Dallas Seminary to focus on radio and writing books.



*What does a day in Paul Meiers life look like?*



*PM:* Right now, I really like what I am doing, and I am planning on doing it the rest of my life. I am seeing patients about three hours a day in the mornings. Then I do live radio in about 200 cities. We go to about a million people a day. I do that everyday, Monday through Friday for an hour. In the afternoons, I write books. I do about one novel a year and one psychiatric self-help book a year. I don't do much public speaking anymore, although I do a speech once a month somewhere. I don't do much traveling anymore, however, I do go to other countries to train and teachthats where I really feel fulfilled as a teacher.



*Tell me more about the work you are doing around the world.*



*PM:* In 1992, I went to Israel to finish writing my first Bible prophecy novel. While I was in Israel, I went to a Messianic synagogue in Jerusalem. I got there a little late and slipped into the back row where they seat tourists. As I looked around, nobody knew me from a hole in the ground. Since the rabbi was preaching in Paul doing research at Michigan State.

Hebrew, I put on earphone's. Just as I started listening, the rabbi said: There are lot of Christians here in Israel and not a single professional Christian counselor. So I really want you to pray today that God will send somebody to teach us how to do Christian counseling, maybe even an American Christian psychiatrist or psychologist. I had Twilight Zone chills go up my spine. I thought, What in the world is going on here? After the service was over, I went up to the rabbi and said, I am a psychiatrist from America. I am a Christian. When do want me to come? The following year, I went and trained about 100 people, Jewish, Arab, and American missionaries in conflict management for two straight weeks. My son went with me, but he had to go back to college early, so I flew home by myself. I like to talk on long international flights, so I always request to sit in the middle seat on the plane. That way, if the person on my left tired of talking to me, I can talk to the person on my right. But on the four- or five-hour flight from Tel Aviv to Paris, nobody spoke English on either side of me. The next flight was going to be a 10- hour flight from Paris to Chicago. So I prayed before I boarded the plane. God, please give me somebody who will speak English, because if I sit there for 10 hours with nobody to talk to, I am going to go nuts. A real good looking 30-year-old blond, blue-eyed French woman sat next to me and spoke pretty good broken English. So I said a silent prayer. Lord, I am a happily married man, but shell do just fine. She started talking and I listened. I asked her where she was going and she told me Little Rock, Arkansas. Why would somebody who grew up in Paris go to Little Rock for vacation? I asked her. I went to medical school in Little Rock, and its a nice town, but its not the place you go if you grew up in Paris. Well, actually, I am going there for two reasons, she replied. When I Scripture like bulI amia, panic attacks, and different things. We don't know what to do. They asked me to hunt down Paul Meier when I get to Little Rock and try to get his advice on how we can get some training for the missionaries in France. At that point I said, I am Paul Meier. When do you want me to come? She just laughed and did not believe me. I pulled out my passport, showed it to her, and she almost fainted. Six months later, I was training a whole bunch of missionaries in France. First, God led me to Israel through that synagogue situation. Second, he led me to France. It dawned on me that the second dream I had at age sixteen was being fulfilled. I was traveling from country to country, teaching people things that would help further the cause of Christ. Since then I have had one opportunity after another. I have never picked the country to go to…I have only gone where some situation dictated it. As a result, I have ended up teaching Christian psychology in Cuba, Denmark, Germany, Greece, Norway, Peru, and Sweden.



*What do you consider to be your most Important contribution to the field?*



*PM:* At New Life Clinic where I am the medical director, we have 450 therapists in 100 different clinics and see about 4,000â€"5,000 patients a week. I was with a group of these leaders for a meeting and we all took a test to analyze our gifts. I came out zero on leadership, but I came out very high on compassion or sensitivity. I think I have always been a compassionate, sensitI have person. I think God has been able to use me prI amarily as an inspirer. Thats probably why I love to teach, I do radio, and answer peoples questions…I have tried to be an inspiration. I grew up in a legalistic church where anything fun was sin. It was a sin to play cards or go to a Disney movie. My dad was pretty strict, my mom was more loving, and my dad became more loving the older he got. When I was in third grade and the other kids learned how to squaredance, my pastor wrote a note to my teacher telling her to not let Paul Meier square-dance. He insisted that God had killed 14,000 Jews for dancing. He did not mention they were dancing to Baal. I felt sorry for all the kids who grew up like I did in that kind of legalism, even though I had a nice mom and dad. I had a real burden on my heart to set people free from legalism…to help Christians get the best kind of psychological help and health that they could have. When I went into psychiatry, I saw people in other kinds of prisons, like the prison of sexual or physical abuse in childhood or in horrible relationships or involvement in things where they were being taken advantage of. I think the thing I am most proud of doing is helping Christians accept psychology and helping psychology accept Christians.



*What would you say to someone who is entering the field now or in the next five years?*



*PM:* I train people all the time. We take interns in Dallas, and I have got a day hospital where people come and stay two or three weeks. I see young interns who come in, and I train them how to do insight-oriented therapy, Gestalt therapy techniques, and all that sort of thing. What I tell them is, Don't get locked into any one field of psychology. In fact, if I was hiring a therapist and the person said, I am a Rogerian therapist, I wouldnt hire the person. If he said, I am a Gestalt therapist, I wouldnt hire him. If she Paul with his wife and daughter at the AACC Soul Conference in 1999 where he received the Lifetime Achievement Care givers Award. said, I am a psychoanalytical therapist, I wouldnt hire her. But if the person said, I am eclectic. For this kind of patient, Ill do more of this technique, for this kind of patient Ill do more of that, thats the kind of person I want to hire. Christian counselors need to be biblically based but willing to look at all the different techniques and modify the patient care to the patient, rather than having their own set theory, cognitive or otherwise, making every patient fit into their paradigm. I would encourage young therapists to be open minded to a lot of different techniques, making sure they don't contradict anything in Scripture, meditating on the Bible every day, being sure they are doing this prI amarily as a ministry. I would also suggest that they develop a good family life, good friends, and stay balanced, because they are not going to do their patients any good if their lives are out of balance. They should let God lead them. Its a great field to be in and this is the time! There are probably only 10-20% of Christians who reject Christian psychology now. Back when I was starting, there were only 10-20% of Christians who would accept Christian psychology. Now, I think its 80-90% of Christians who are open to Christian counseling and Christian therapists. There are still 10% on what I call the paranoid fringe.



*Who has been most significant to you in your development in the field and as a believer?*



*PM:* The list is long. Prior to entering psychiatry, Paul Tournier, through his writings, helped me to be compassionate and analytical. In medical school, Frank Minirth was a strong, steady influence, because he always quoted Scripture and prayed about decisions. Bill Wilson, my mentor at Duke, was probably the strongest influence of anybody, because he really pushed for excellence and yet he had a heart for the Lord. He really hand-tutored me. When I left Duke, he cried because he wanted me to stay and teach there. One of the residents I got to know in Bible study at Duke was David Larson. Hes my prayer partner. I call him often, we confess to each other and pray for each other and for our kids. I have already mentioned Leighton Fords sermon at Paul Littles funeral. Gary Collins taught me how to have a heart for ministry that was inspirational when I taught at Trinity Seminary. Haddon Robinson was my boss for many years at Dallas Seminary. He encouraged me, critiqued me, and taught me that its OK to not know the answer to every question a students asks. Online counselor is always available to help you out.



*Where do you see yourself going in the future?*



*PM:* Right now, I am planning on doing what I am doing until I am too senile to answer questions on the radio. Then Ill retire. Id like to keep writing one novel a year. I don't feel any pressure to write any more psychology books. I have written over 50 books now, and I really feel as if I have covered every topic that I have wanted to cover. But I enjoy doing the novels. I am going to be doing a series of psychological novels and maybe some childrens novels in the future. If I write more books on psychiatry, it will be because I have some burden in the future to cover some area. I can't even think of a topic I want to write on anymore. The last book I finished with Frank was Mastering Your Moods, and it was on the genetic disorders. This is one area that many Christian counselors have overlooked: obsessI have compulsI have disorder, bipolar disorder, PMS, schizophrenia, and the genetic disorders. I really enjoyed writing that book even though it took a lot of research. If I died today, Id die happy, so now I am going to sit back and relax and do what I am doing until the Lord takes me home.